While discussing Proposition 8 with Alaina the other week she challenged me to come up with the basis of my argument and post it in Blog form. Before anyone reads the following thoughts, I want you to first be assured that if I had a ballot in front of me right now I would vote Yes on Proposition 8. (sorry this is so long, i guess i have had a lot to say over the last few weeks). (If you read and comment i will give you a cookie).
This conclusion did not come easily, and I just want to share a couple of (controversial) ideas that I have on the subject so all of my readers (all 3 of you) can know where I stand. I apologize beforehand if any of the things that I say offend you, and I can assure you that this in no way affects my testimony.
First of all, I believe that if you are going to stand for something that it should be done in the right way. If you are going to stand up against gay marriage I propose that this should be done in a respectful non-bigoted, non-judgmental way. When I ask people at BYU (and elsewhere) why they are voting yes on Prop 8 I have heard a lot of disingenuous and blatantly homophobic responses, and I would like to take the time to refute some common claims.
1.Lesbian Teacher Wedding ---This argument particularly bothers me, I have heard so many people say, “I don’t want my kids to have to go on field trips to city hall to see their lesbian teachers get married.” To which I respond, “Then don’t sign the permission slip.”
The incident that everyone is making reference to took place at Creative Arts Charter School. To put it in perspective for you, the school is run on a system where every parent of an enrolled child is required to volunteer 40 hours per year at the school. Because it is a smaller charter school the kids are kept in the same classroom with the same teacher for two straight years. So the First graders in question (and their parents (40 hours/year)) knew this woman very well. The entire field trip was planned by a parent volunteer as a surprise for the teacher. In other words, this wasn’t a lesbian teacher taking it upon herself to proselytize her students. Two parents were uncomfortable with the situation and their kids remained at the school because they didn’t sign the permission slip. When is the last time your kids went on a fieldtrip without your permission? Should we make a law to ban stupid parents?
2. Homosexuality is gross.--- I am not going to tell you that I think that two men being intimate is beautiful (personally I am more repulsed by the thought of two morbidly obese people…), but I think that it is ignorant to have this be your main argument.
Just because people don’t see the world the same way as you doesn’t mean that they are wrong. I think as members of the church we should be particularly sensitive to protecting the rights and privacy of others. Just as I hope others would defend our rights to private religious practices.
3. Supporting Homosexuality is not the next step to support Adultery and Pedophilia--- Being tolerant and accepting to homosexuals is not taking society in the direction of passing a law to promote cheating or molestation. Acting on pedophilic impulses damages or ruins a child’s ability to develop normally leads to increased likelihood of the victim becoming a perpetrator, and may lead to lifetime of confusion regarding intimacy. Adultery goes against everything that society is based on, it destroys families. That is why this country will never add an amendment allowing pedophilia or adultery. That is why supporting homosexuality is different (and will not lead to) an increased support of pedophilia and adultery. Whether you like it or not homosexuality binds two people, where as child molestation and cheating destroys families and the innocence of children.
4. You are practically anti-Mormon if you oppose Prop 8 --- Talking to my friend Ben today about Prop 8 he said, “I feel so bad for a friend of mine, he opposes Prop 8, and everyone in our apartment thinks he’s gay.”
"The greatest fear I have is that the people of this Church will accept what we say as the will of the Lord without first praying about it and getting the witness within their own hearts that what we say is the word of the Lord." President Brigham Young (Stand Ye in Holy Places, pp 162-63).
Is it possible for people, with a wide range of backgrounds and physiological make-ups, to come to different answers to prayer regarding the council of church leaders? If people do come to different conclusions should they be ostracized for their beliefs? In a interview with KSL L. Whitney Clayton of the Quorum of the seventy stated, “Latter-day Saints are free to disagree with their church on the issue without facing any sanction, We love them and bear them no ill will.”
5. Adoption/artificial insemination --- what I hear, “it is so unnatural for lesbian moms to get pregnant, it goes against what God would want.” Or, “I don’t think they should be allowed to adopt, that’s why I support Prop 8”
1. Is it unnatural for the thousands of straight couples, or single mothers who are artificially inseminated to get pregnant, does that go against God’s plan if they were otherwise unable to have babies?
2. Current Californian law grants domestic partners (straight or gay) the same rights regarding adoption, there is nothing a vote yes or no on Prop 8 will change about that. LDS family services, because they do not take money from the federal government, will continue to be able to carefully monitor prospective adoptive parents, as they do now in any other state.
What this country really needs are more parents who WANT to have babies, and who are committed to loving them.
_______________________________________________________________________
WHY I WOULD VOTE YES
All of the rights that would be granted by allowing homosexuals in California to marry are already included in their right to have a Civil Union. I do support Civil Unions, because I do support equal rights for all citizens, but I do not support, nor see the need, to redefine marriage as anything other than the sacred union between a man and a woman.
___________________________________________________________________
WHAT I THINK WE CAN DO AS MEMBERS
If you believe, as I do, that marriage should be between a man and a woman, by all means go knock doors and tell the whole world. But on an interpersonal level I think we could all be a little more tolerant of our gay brothers and sisters.
I have had the privilege at BYU to get to know several gay students. They came here from different socioeconomic backgrounds and different parts of the country, but there is one thing that they all have in common. While talking about their struggles with homosexuality I have seen the dread that each has in his eyes as he expresses the horror of living a lonely and isolated life. If homosexuality is a choice who would choose to be gay at BYU? If it’s a choice, how many “reformed” homosexuals do you know who chose to no longer be gay?
I think the best that we can do is love all people.
Feel free to comment. Feel free to refute everything I said or call me an idiot. I promise that I am in no way trying to insult you, I am just trying to write what I think.
12 comments:
I read it all, and you brought up some very good points. I disagree with you on some, but definitely agree that everyone could be more tolerant. I love you, thank you for taking the time to write this.
ps.
I think it's a little bit funny that my WORD VERIFICATION code, for the first time in my life, is a word, "trater".
hahahaha
Okay dude, I'll be the brave one here and be the 1st to comment.
I actually agree with you in most regards. I could care less if homosexual couples get the same tax breaks that married people do etc.
The fear I have with "tolerance" is where do we stop? Agree with you completely on the permission slip thing. Same sort of thing applies to teachers wanting to show R rated films in class or have you kid skip out on sex-ed at school. However, what happens if we get so comfortable with it that they stop asking you (the parent) if it's okay to teach your kid about sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll or homosexuality. That's the part I would never agree to. It's still my right as a parent to teach my kids what I believe is right or wrong. I don't need a school or a government to tell my kid 1 thing and have me tell him another.
I'm afraid that we're going to see such a push for "tolerance" that we'll start to see this getting discussed/taught as something totally acceptable without our knowledge. At the end of the day, public schools are run by the government and if the government says that there is absolutely nothing wrong with being gay, then why can't the schools teach that? I don't want to go down that slippery slope, so I'd just assume stop it before we even get on the slope.
I'm rambling and will stop now. I'm sure I've got more to say on the subject, but have to pretend to work at some point too!
Thanks Joshur--I appreciate your thoughtful explanation of your views on Prop 8. It's definitely an interesting situation, and I tend to be a bit split in my vote. Just last night I had to explain my social views to a left-side liberal (whose mother happens to be a lesbian). Knowing I was treading on uneasy ground, the explanation (read: not argument) I used was a throw-back to the Family Proclamation. Family is the fundamental unit of society, and it's an important foundation to the way I live my life, and the way I want to raise a family.
The gravest error I see is when we (being members of the church) try to tell other people what to do instead of explaining what we'd like to have happen individually. Anything else sounds judgmental.
This is long, rambling, and not very coherent. Probably not the best idea to leave a "deep" comment at the end of a Friday!
Great thoughts, thanks for putting time into this. I'm honored by the honorable mention! My blog will be coming soon, where I will share some of my opinions that both agree and disagree with yours.
Isn't it great when we can all talk and debate without getting heated about it? I do love debating with you, thanks for being a great communicator.
regarding Whitney Clayton's statement that, “Latter-day Saints are free to disagree with their church on the issue without facing any sanction, We love them and bear them no ill will.”
i have seen this quote on several blogs but am unable to find the original text (or video/audio). could you direct me to your source for the quote?
Mark,
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10797630
The quote was in the Salt lake tribune, quoting an interview done on KSL.
joshua,
i read the same Salt Lake Tribune article, but when i went to KSL i was unable to find any such quote. i was just wondering if you had the original source. thanks anyway.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am impressed that you can organize them so well in spite of the fact that people you know will read and disagree. It is easier to write posts about bleach and birthdays.
I like your point about the permission slip principle.
I agree with your conclusions about loving everyone.
I disagree with the idea that being gay is not a choice. It is not a choice to have a tendency towards something, yes. One might have a tendency towards smoking, looking at pornography, gossiping, etc., but it is your choice whether to give into that tendency or not in all of those cases. I have known a few homosexual-tendency feeling students at BYU, but their choice to not act upon those feelings was the right thing. God set clear guidelines and is now putting us to the test.
I also disagree with the adoption thing and wish we could vote on that. Studies upon studies have proven that a child needs a mother AND a father to develop into a well-balanced adult. No matter how much a mother-mother or father-father team loves the child, that child is not getting what they really need.
Leeann, when discussing ignorance, learn to spell. But good luck on your mission, who ever you are.
Leeanne-
Jared is far from ignorant. If I don't want my child see rated R movies, then I won't let him to go the movie theater if that's what his friends will be planning to see. If I think the teacher is cramming immoral garbage down his throat, I will yank him from public school and have my wife home school him. And for the record... I am not a fan of home-schooling.
It isn't sheltering a child to protect them from what you think is dangerous. Otherwise, I'm sheltering him every time I close the door at the top of the stairs or take the pepper spray out of his hands that he found in his mom's purse. (But for the record... that only happened once.)
Josh-
I completely agree with some of your arguments. People get wrapped up in the emotion of the issue instead of the facts, when the debate could arguably be won by facts OR a belief system instead of hate speech.
However, many do voice their feelings about gay marriage and back their words up with their religious beliefs. Many think this is inappropriate to do, and that religion has no place in politics and government, but George Washington said that it must be kept central in government because otherwise there is no basis for morality. So, if the majority of the people believe in God and/or in Christ's teachings, then why should there be a fear in admitting it as a partial or full basis to your political beliefs? Why is it taboo to say that your religion helps you define what you think is right and wrong?
That being said...
Most people are seeing the issue for something other than what it is. Even the website www.gaypatriot.net sees what this is really about. It's about the vote of the people. The people of California voted to defend traditional marriage in 2000, by a majority vote of 61%. That was 4.3 million people. The court overruled the majority vote. This is a battle for the voice of the people to make the choice, and for the court to not legislate.
But if you want to know my opinion... just ask.
-Mike
politicalshorts.blogspot.com
(FYI... I can't type that web address in Facebook chat windows. I receive a message that says "Some content in this message has been reported as abusive by Facebook users")
It's probably because I'm a hatemonger.
Oh... and when do we get our cookies?
Thank you Josh, for taking the time to do your research and share your thoughts. And for the record, I am the one my Mom talked about who wasn't comfortable knocking on people's doors to talk about it.
Post a Comment